Nice post Dave....
I think the Patch is a very good forum as long as people don't post deliberate mis-truths. I've see quite a few lately..... If you know something as fact and can prove what you say then do your thing, but if you're going to say things from second or third party then it should be made known. That is only fair. In regards to thick skinned....been there done that....
I can come off a little strong but my reasons are....there have been several attempts to silence my brother and I in the town. We don't react kindly to any type of censorship, and you all should not either. All people should have their say but stopping people from having it is an issue with me. As long as you play by the rules nothing should be off topic....but here some things are. Of course I understand Patch might not be the venue for such topics and that is why I have two cable shows.
Want to see how far free speech can go watch my shows.
I know some are afraid to post here, so to you folks....if you post with conviction make sure you can defend your position. That entails doing your homework.
And don't freak out with the responses. Things get pretty lively around here.
And lastly...none of us has all the answers and we all can learn new things from each other, be open minded, fair, and not one to rush to judgement.
And don't take it personal...unless the post attacking you is.....
Hopefully it will be deleted if it goes too far.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Nice post Dave.

Hi Dave,

Great post.

I'm glad you're enjoying the Patch. I was the founding editor in Sharon, and watching the site grow into a community resource was fun. Residents used it as a place to learn about the town, and discuss issues.

Westborough Patch has a similar tradition.

In both places, I've stepped in when readers have gotten personal. I firmly believe that name calling diminishes the person's argument. And it is off-topic.

In Sharon, in one case, someone's comment accused a town board of, essentially, not relating to the average person. I noted that the chairman had just returned from serving a year in Afghanistan, teaches locally, and has a family.

I believe that civil debate at the very least leads to understanding of other perspectives, and can lead to better ideas.

And I am concerned that personal attacks discourage people from commenting, for fear of being attacked as well.

How do others feel about this?

How about just enforcing your rules when a personal attack takes place.
It's one thing criticizing a persons comment but to start talking about what a person posted last month here or on another site, has relationships with, what's on his website...is IMO crossing the line, unless you can take the response.
Just stick to the posting here as best you can. That's not to say you can't post a link to some were else but what is the reason for doing so, to clarify a point or to slander or defame someone with some mistruth from another site.
I find when people can't prove their point with facts they turn it personal. A personal attack happens when a person runs out of legitimate things to say.
Remember what you say here stays up and can't be taken back unless deleted but that still is no protection for you.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Good post. Many times I've canceled a response so not fuel the flamers. Keep it civil and respectful. Most of Framingham was built by people from somewhere else.

The worst of the incivility I've noticed is specific to posters who use pseudonyms, which is common on the Internet. If the Patch enforced its own policy, it would be less of a problem. Personally, I typically only comment on Facebook because the comments are more civil because people have to sign their names.

Jim is right about one thing: if you bait the hook, you shouldn't be surprised when the fish takes the bait. If you make a provocative comment about someone else, don't be surprised if it is returned in an even less civil manner.

As far as the conversation being dominated by immigration no matter what the topic of the article, it is up to others who comment to take it in a different direction. Choose something different to talk about, rather than complaining about people who post on immigration. Any attention, even negative attention, directed to the topic only serves to help it dominate the discussion.

Linda: Thanks for posting. Great thoughts!!!

All Patch sites updated the terms of use in July 2012, and it no longer requires everyone use their real first and last name.
As I have required that people use their first and last name when posting, since we launched Framingham Patch on Dec. 1 2010, I continue to encourage everyone use their first and last real names so that there is civility on the site. I'm sure many of you have seen me post comments to such often. I still believe, if you know whom you are talking to online, like at a bus stop or on a soccer field, you are less likely to start being rude, bullying or name call when you post.

Terms of use as of July 9, 2012: http://framingham.patch.com/terms
"We encourage, but do not require, that the user name you provide be your real name."

Joe Ruivo, I have also canceled posts so as not to incite flamers. Other times I feel that readers may assume that everyone agrees with the post if no counter argument is presented.

Michael, I tend not to comment as often as I would like because my words will be twisted and used to make irrational, unrelated arguments. Also, I am not always interested in reading the same negative, hating posts from certain people in the first place so I only read the comments occasionally.

@Susan: With the Patch policy change, you can expect things to deteriorate rapidly with respect to civility. Just check out the comments on that "other local media source," if you doubt.

@Michael, You can expect me to largely stay away from the comment section, especially given the change in policy which will only make things worse.

Karen....I think it would be good to get the definition of hate here.
To disagree, even vehemently is NOT hate.
Hate is lying about people and trying to spread misinformation about them or to slander and hurt them. And as Linda D. said these are the people who don't use their real names.
Too bad Patch lowered their standards in regards to the names.
It's the only thing you got to say your legit.
Now you open this up to even more trolls and troublemakers.
Sue.....Your work will be cut out for you now.
Jim@ccfiile.com

I have seen other sites deteriorate rapidly with both nonsense and vulgarity. I guess I was expecting more from a site that was local and community oriented. In defense of the Patch, they do allow readers to flag what is really offensive or vulgar. The problem is I dont think enoughpeople take interest to do it!
And Jim, I honestly believe you don't hate anybody here, but your passion for your beliefs comes across as hate at times. I'm not saying to tone it down, thats up to you.

@Dave - that is correct. Any reader has the right to flag a comment they find inappropriate ... and as I can't be on the site 24 hours a day 365 days a year, if enough Patch readers flag it, it is removed from the site.

Jim, according to many dictionary websites, the definition of hate is:
"Feeling intense or passionate dislike for something". It says nothing about lying or hurting someone so I have to ask where you got your definition! I think the majority of people here will agree with me that your vehemence toward illegal aliens, religious groups and many others can be interpreted as hate. In future, I will be sure to apply the "inappropriate" flag when I see these type of posts.

Dave....You might be right there.....so at least I give them someone they can hate.
People that know me...my words are strong but my actions are good.
It's how you treat people you come in contact with that really counts and I can honestly say I deal kindly and respectfully with ALL people I come in contact with.
In fact most people would say you wouldn't think I was the same person.
I'm not perfect had some fall backs over the years here and there, but for the most part I can say this. I'm not looking for pats on the back either. I just deal honestly with people, the way it should be.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Hi Jim,

I'm curious: why do people need "someone they can hate"?

MG

Dave, well said.

Susan & Michael - as an (infrequent) blogger, one thing I would love to be able to do is to put off-topic comments or comments I find offensive into a moderation queue, where a patch staffer can review and determine if they are appropriate.

Case in point, I recently wrote an open letter to the MBCR as my blog, and a commenter came into my blog to carry on a fight on an entirely different topic about women's rights and appropriate role in society from another comment thread into my stream. I would have loved to have the ability to send that to moderation, and ask someone else to look at it before it was approved.

As it stands, I don't want to turn off comments on my blog, but the constant return to migrant justice and biblical issues diminishes my desire to post blogs. I don't always have the energy.

In the topics I research it makes people feel like they have one over ya if they can zero in on a person,organization whatever, that they think is hateful.
It takes the heat off of their insecurities and weaknesses if you can put it on someone else. That way they never have to answer for there sins.
I would give examples of it but not here as it would get too controversial.
But it applies in a lot of areas of life. Religion, Corporate, Social/Racial fields etc...
It's a pretty interesting topic. If people truthfully acknowledged that they did it the world would be a much peaceful place. The problem is they don't so the "hate" continues on, and the problem "hate" is always someones elses problem.
Jim@ccfiile.com

@Jim, I don't think anyone should aspire to "giving them someone to hate". I don't think anybody hates you. I took a lot of offense to a lot of the things you said, I make no bones about that. But as you pointed out and I came to realize, you have the right to say them. I hope to have quality and open discussions with you and your brother in the future. I've lived in Framingham for about 10 years now and know very little of it's history, so feel free to give me advice where I can learn. We don't have to agree on every social issue, but hopefully we can have open dialogue. I'm going to watch "The Newsroom" with the wife for the rest of the night...g'night all!

Not a bad thought to allow the blogger to somehow moderate the discussion of their piece - not censor, moderate to stay on topic. I think most (to not say all) people who blog on here want to have a lively discussion of the topics they bring up and not necessarily the same topics others bring up every post...

@ Ben and Kira: I screen all comments on anything submitted through Westborough. And I've rejected a handful of comments over my two weeks here.

I like reading Patch -- Blogs and all, even amateur blogs because I don't have a specific topic I would want to write about weekly. As for some posts or posters, I skip over because I already know their mantra and my time is valuable.

Gee Amy even for those I don't like I read there post because have respect for My fellow man•

Joe Rizoli

Hi, all - and Dave, thanks for the blog! Welcome to the "thick skin" club. :-)

I just wanted to weigh in here, and address those whose comments aren't getting approved. Blatant personal attacks will be rejected. Respectful disagreements are fine.

Additionally, on the weekend, there is likely to be a delayed response in comment approval. Although the perception may be that Patch editors are on 24/7 - because our website is online 24/7 - we actually are not. (See Susan Petroni's comments above.)

Back to you, Dave: The Newsroom is on my "to watch" list. I just haven't pulled the trigger on an HBO subscription.

Danielle, watched every episode on demand yesterday....it's addicting.

David..The Rizoli's haven't lied about anyone but me particularly has been the brunt of some pretty good fiction.
In regards to anti this or that....show me where people can't be anti- this or that.
That's what it's all about. As long as no harm is brought upon a person what's the problem.
I can see Dave L is catching on....while some still cling to their "hate" rhetoric.
Hey.... whatever turns you on.
Jjm@ccfiile.com

As usual, Dave, you are a model for us all. I love your open-mindedness. But I have to say, the Patch "intelligentsia" clearly have no consistent rules, and there is no real supervision--not to mention any clearly stated or enforced policy--when it comes to the relationship between advertising and posting on this site. I and several others have been called "gay" and "pro-illegal" in the past several weeks, and vaguely threatening and insinuating comments are regularly made here. Certain posters love to "look people up" and then, in vaguely threatening ways, suggest they "know" people, and they somehow think that free speech means that you can lie about anybody whenever you want, and quote Scripture if it backs up your HATEFUL agenda. These posters are to the local Patch what the Kardashians are to the E Channnel--they keep people coming back--but to what? I would only like to say that as with the Kardashians, it is the lowest common denominator that is best served here; the grotesque recurrence of anti-gay, anti-Braziilian, anti-Chinese, anti-liberal, anti-democratic, anti-education, anti-Semitic, anti-scientific-evidence posts, keeps people's eyes popping. Whereas actual progress--in my humble opinion--depends on putting all those anti's behind us, and moving FORWARD.

And could somebody please explain the basic relationship here between the advertising and the blog feature? My researches have not been terribly fruitful: supposedly, every thousand hits on a specific page is worth a certain amount of advertising dollars. If this is true, then it does suggest that there is considerable leeway in interpreting the "rules" for posting. For example, if someone posts a lot of vicious nonsense, but the number of hits for that nonsense increases dramatically--well, there's a certain motivation for allowing and even encouraging that nonsense (vicious though it is). The relationship of journalism to advertising is an old one, I know. But The Patch version seems to lean rather dramatically in one direction, or is, in any case, increasingly troubled and troubling...

David, I got/get really bent when I was/am called names here, or had insinuations made against me. There are a lot of people here who have had it worse than me for a lot longer. But in the end, does it really matter? You are strong in your opinions and beliefs and that is GREAT! I'm sure nobody can sway your beliefs with name calling or crass remarks. Stay the course my friend! But allow others to have their say as well. We may not agree with everyone, but we can all learn from opinions we don't agree with too. When the emotions of the moment get overwhelming, walk away. Take a break, and maybe move on to another topic. Believe me, I'm a hard headed Irishman and it hasn't been easy for me. The Patch editors aren't responsible for how comeents deteriorate here, we all are. You and I share a lot of similar opinions and stances David, and I'm a Republican...LOL. So different views can find a common ground...hopefully.

Mr. Nolta makes an excellent point when he says "every thousand hits on a specific page is worth a certain amount of advertising dollars." This kind of relationship might also lead Patch to create polls which might be highly controversial or titillating. An additional aspect of this relationship is that the 'bloggers' are unpaid and do not share in that advertising revenue. Thus, Patch makes money from unpaid labor. It seems their editors may not be full time, may only be responsible for the daily police report, 5 things and perhaps one or two brief articles per week.

Ron King...Most likely not your real name.
I love everyone but hate injustice, and those that promote it.
I leave my email for those to get in touch with me off line.
You are welcomed to email me if you have a problem with me.
Jim@ccfiile.com

I don't care who's making money on who, just be fair with all the posters.
I see certain ones are treated better than others.
Some women seem to get away with a lot here....gee I wonder why.
Jim@ccfiile.com

It can also be concieved that the Patch could lose other advertising clients as well as readers by putting up the perception that they condone and encourage racist and anti-gay remarks. It certainly can appear that way to the casual reader. Look at the incident with Chick-fil-a or whatever that restaurant is called. It doesn't take much to lose the respect of people and future advertisers.

Very nice post Dave and I can't agree more with your sentiments. Things seem to devolve fairly quickly in some posts down to the same old discussions. More than once I have started to type a response but end up stepping back and just not entering the fray. Its sad that so many posts go down the same path of discussion but as others have noted, contributors are free to say what they want as long as it falls within the TOS. I've learned about about Framingham through this site and hope to learn more going forward. Hopefully it can continue to be a great community resource if we can all keep the rhetoric down a few notches.

Folks, read http://westborough.patch.com/blog_posts/my-last-blog-post#comments
Some of you are not alone.

Thanks for the mention, Dave, and for sharing your ideas so freely with the community. It takes an effort to be open when it comes from honest and kind intentions, and I'd like to think it's a worthwhile effort that ends up blessing you and others in the end. It's truly the definition of a well-functioning community!

Happened upon this blog and thought it was interesting. First I want to say I think the moderators do a great job. Second, I want to thank Robert, Susan, Ron G, Andy K and some others for some good well thought out conversation. I do want to touch base on the arguing and name calling thing ( I have been guilty of it) I have done it only WHEN I was antagonized by rude comments by some of the people in this post. I don't just go making rude comments to people for no reason. I also suggest that people that are complaining about people "looking them up": are worried about it because they know they are rude to others so they have a guilty conscience. I mean afterall if you are nice to people why would anyone "look you up"? I also want to point out I joined in July and posted very limited, then I started posting in late December. I was called iliterate, a liar, dumb, accused of thinking "I know people" (not sure what that even means). I then looked at old posts and found that the person that did all of this to me did it to others in August (before I was even posting) so it seems it is his M.O. I reached out to Robert and Susan and I asked Robert to delete my account. Then I thought about it and I am not being chased away by someone who is intolerant to others views (and who pretends he is all accepting of othes) I do suggest that he and others stop the slight rude comments that just beg for a defensive and argumentative reply. Thanks again to the moderators. Great job!

I also don't think bloggers should be able to put readers comments in que for moderation. these are the same people that use the first Amendment as a way of saying anything they want but then they want to be able to edit what people say to them? that is sort of wierd! I am all for the first Amendment it is one of the things that makes this country great. I do understand this is moderated by Patch staff (that is neutral) so let them do thier job (that they do well) and accept peoples views when they differ from yours.

Hi DGM. I don't think bloggers have any say regarding comments on their posts. I blog sometimes and am not aware of such a feature, at least. Otherwise, I hope you continue commenting (for what my opinion is worth!) and don't let the few personal attackers ruin interesting discussions!

Hi Kira how are you? Thank you, I did not think there is was a function that allows them to do it. I was commenting on some of the comments that asked for that type of feature. In reading I just realized the posts may pre-date the "flag as inappropriate" feature. I am new here so sorry.

Just wondering, DGM...have you ever posted here using the name 'Chris L' ?

I'm also wondering if your comments here -- on a post originally dated August 11 -- have anything to do with a much more recent post dated January 8.

Dennis, No I have not posted under Chris L. I think my first post was December 22nd in regards to the armed gaurds in schools. Have a great night.

Also, after further thought I have requested my count be deactivated. I do not wish to get in any further arguments and because of deep issues covered here I cannot guarantee I will not get pulled in again. Life is too short and I do not wish to have that type of conversation with anyone. Again, I think all the moderators do a great job I also again want to thank Robert, Susan, Mary, Ron, Andy and I am forgetting others but there are some excellent people on here! Thanks.